Hi! Welcome. You being here means more than you know. Knowing it resonates with you keeps me going. I'm Lavena Xu-Johnson. I write about psychology for founders. Why? Because scaling a business means knowing ourselves first.

Happy Wednesday, founders.

What's that one behavior you wish to change, only to watch yourself relapse into it within the same 24 hours you promised would be different?

Every day I am somehow committed to not giving myself ‘permission’ to rest and fall asleep until the clock hits exactly 00.00.

I'm torn between exhaustion and excitement, and if I'm not working on my laptop, my default neural network still has 100s of tabs open in my mind's back office.

I play tug-of-war with myself between resting early and staying up late, but I succeed in sleeping early about 1 day a week.

Until… on the last thread of hope, I decided to try a therapeutic technique that is apparently so effective that in a randomized trial, adding a single session before cognitive behavioral therapy began significantly improved people's outcomes, compared to CBT alone.

Which leads to today’s piece on what 40 years of research on behavioral change tells us about why we just cannot change and how to solve it.

PS. Thank you to the readers who wrote in last time about enjoying the last piece and for the advice to include more scenarios for better understanding. Your feedback is my fuel!

🤝 This edition is kindly brought to you by Long Angle

Long Angle is a private community of 9,000+ vetted members, $3M–$100M+ net worth, comparing notes on what comes after a liquidity event: concentrated stock, QSBS, what to tell your kids. Started by two founders who couldn't find that conversation after their own exit. No fees.

🤝 We partner with a select group of brands we use or admire, which keeps this newsletter free and independent. Reach out for your campaign here.

The origin of motivational interviewing

Motivational interviewing believes that instead of instilling motivation for someone to commit to change, liberating pre-existing motivations for change within the person is key.

On a 1982 sabbatical in Norway, clinical psychologist Dr. William Miller was demonstrating counselling techniques with patients who suffer from addictions to alcohol and substance abuse in a role-play for a group of young psychologists.

The way he led the conversations was so intellectually intriguing to the young psychologists that they kept asking mid-session why he'd chosen a particular question and what the thought process behind it was.

Their questions inspired him to format them into decision rules which were later formalized into a book, Motivational Interviewing: Preparing People to Change Addictive Behaviour.

The motivational interviewing method is rooted deeply in the humanistic approach of therapy, emphasizing a collaborative, empathetic and interactive style. The goal is to empower a person to align more closely with their intentions and values, using open questions and reflective listening rather than correction. It is not the practitioner's responsibility to make the client change, but rather, in Dr William Miller’s words, ‘It’s a way of being with people to help people make changes.’

In a randomized trial with generalized anxiety disorder patients, adding a single MI session before starting cognitive behavioral therapy significantly reduced worry and improved how much of the assigned homework people actually completed, compared to starting CBT with no MI at all.

Over the last four decades, more than 2,000 studies have been published evaluating the use of motivational interviewing across a wide range of applications, and it is now widely used among clinicians, coaches, and managers.

How to conduct a motivational interview for yourself

The centre of any resistance to change is the ambivalence about change: that we are ultimately holding two contradictory beliefs at the same time.

In my case, to be ‘addicted’ to sleeping late, I am holding the contradictory beliefs that

  • Sleeping late is productive: I am most productive around midnight, and I must utilize that.

  • Sleeping early is productive: I must sleep early to feel productive the next day.

This means in order to change, I must empower the ‘sleep early is productive’ narrative.

But how?

After analyzing hundreds of transcripts and recordings from therapy conversations, Miller and his collaborators broke down a person's own language about behavioral change into two categories: Change talk and sustain talk.

Change talk

DARN language occurs when someone is considering a change:

  • Desire: I want to

  • Ability: I could

  • Reasons: because

  • Need: I have to

CAT language mostly occurs when someone is close to change:

  • Commitment: I will

  • Activation: I'm willing to

  • Taking steps: I already started

Sustain talk

DARNAC language occurs when someone might want to sustain their current status quo, perhaps problematic behavior.

  • Desire: I don’t want to

  • Ability: I can’t

  • Reasons: If I did…, then…

  • Need: I don’t need to

  • Activation: I’m not ready to

  • Commitment: I’m not going to

Underneath both categories of language sits the same starting condition: ambivalence, carrying two opposing beliefs about the same behavior at once. Change talk: "I know I should rest" and sustain talk "I can't afford to right now" coexist, which is what keeps a habit in place.

Turning the interview inward

So, if the outcome of a change in behavior is tied to our narratives, can we act as our own therapist or counselor to evoke change?

Miller's 2014 review found that writing built to draw out our own change talk was linked to positive behavior change, without a therapist asking a single question.

Through the process of MI-based guided interactive journaling, we observe our own contradictory narratives, and by evoking ourselves with questions, we empower ourselves to weigh pros more than cons so that we mobilize our desire for change.

The most common narratives we give ourselves in workaholism are:

  1. “I will take a break when I achieve this milestone, even though I am stretched thin, and I need this break.”

The contradicting beliefs are:

  • Rest is a risk.

  • Rest is productive.

  1. “I will do everything myself, without delegation. Even though I feel like some extra support would be very helpful.”

The contradicting beliefs are:

  • Delegation is a risk.

  • Delegation is productive.

More often than not, we stay in habits that don’t add value to the business, and unless we take a deep dive into our minds through metacognition, we will be carried along by the inertia of old beliefs that may no longer serve us.

Let’s keep using the scenario where our inner tug-of-war is on rest vs work, here are some guided questions to answer:

  • Desire: Why would I actually want to ___ (rest), not just agree that I should?

  • Ability: How could I actually go about it, in a way that would work for me?

  • Reasons: What are my three best reasons for ___ (resting)?

  • Need: How important is this to me right now, and why?

  • Activation: What am I willing to do about it, at this point?

  • Commitment: What have I decided to do?

  • Taking steps: What have you already started?

A belief shift does not happen in one sitting but requires our active self-observation and patience over time.

Key takeaways

Simple steps to put motivational interviewing into practice:

  1. Interview the habit before deciding to stop it.

Instead of telling yourself "I'll rest more," walk yourself through your desire, ability, reasons, and need. Let the contradiction untangle itself.

  1. Notice our own hedged language.

Change your narrative from "I should probably" to "I will."

  1. Write it down before saying it out loud.

Miller's review found structured journaling produces the same effect as a therapy session with a counselor.

  1. Revisit the DARN-CAT questions monthly whenever you find yourself stubborn in a bad habit that stops you from growing

Try the same method in other areas of life you’d like to improve: it could be cutting back on sugar intake, going to the gym, or asking for help.

We've learned to interview candidates, investors, and customers with intention; but the most overdue interview might be the one we keep skipping with ourselves.

As always, hit reply if something in here hits home.

Lavena

P.S. If you want to get a founder feature about your own story, reply to this email. If you’d like to reach our newsletter audience (founders, creators, and marketers), click the button below.

If you’re new here, I’m over the moon you’ve joined us! To help me craft content that’s actually useful (and not just noise in your inbox), I’d love it if you took 1 minute to answer this quick survey below. Your insights help shape everything I write.

Insane Media is more than one voice

Dive into our other newsletters - where psychology meets the creator economy, e-commerce marketing, and Human resources.

It's Not the Work

It's Not the Work

Unfiltered people strategy, workplace culture shifts, and the future of HR – minus the corporate fluff.

'AD-TO-CART'

'AD-TO-CART'

Tactical growth and marketing insights for e-commerce brands, backed by research and behavioral strategy.

Curious Creator

Curious Creator

Smart creators don’t just post - they build platforms, grow audiences, and monetize with intention.

AI Odyssey

AI Odyssey

AI Odyssey delivers essential AI trends shaping the future of business, work, and tech – built for founders and decision-makers.

Reply

Avatar

or to participate